Classroom Talk
Winter 2002 Archive
About two ways of asking for feedback. Posted by John on March 06, 2002 at 16:06:23:
In Reply to: Re: Dusting off the old hotseat again. posted by Eddie on March 06, 2002 at 00:10:20:
First of all, I'm not being angry with you now, Eddie. I got over that quickly enough, and I'm relaxed in being with you now . . . and excited about
this last posting of yours here.
I'd like for you to compare, and notice that there is a massive qualitative difference between this last posting, and the several postings you are
referring to in this issue you've brought up, where I didn't give you feedback.
Unless I misunderstand you, those several postings were times when you were being inspired by some material that you have been reading and
studying (like Nicoll, perhaps), and you were trying to find words of your own and a way of your own to express the same ideas or theories in a
posting here.
I dig that. To me, these are like "practice drafts" that you are writing. I do usually seem to see that they pertain to what we're talking about and
doing here in class, which makes them valuable contributions from my point of view in coaching this class. I'd like to see you become able to treat these
drafts like sketches on a sketchpad, that you tear off and *throw away* as soon as they are posted. (Can you see any kind of sense in my saying
that?)
These are also "drafts of your understandings," so to speak, that you are posting, trying to give the teacher an opportunity to "make corrections" in it,
if corrections are warranted. I think that's what you're looking for in posting them. You are asking: "Am I missing the mark?"
And they are also like "practice drafts" in a process of preparation for someday writing your first book on your understandings and experiences of
spiritual knowledge. Can you relate to this idea, too?
Although these postings are well-done, and do contribute to the class, they are not "conversations with the rest of us," if you see what I mean. They
are like "turning in homework," I guess we could say. In this last posting, however, notice that you are having a conversation with me, person-to-
person. You are talking to me, directly, and trying to understand me, in a wonderful way!
But in these several postings we are talking about, that is not a conversation. Each of those postings is another "painting," in the same sense that
Douglas's "Tintern Abbey" was a painting, rather than a conversation with the rest of us. Do you follow me on this, Eddie? They are draft statements
of your understandings, or "practice drafts of a book."
In posting those postings, your attitude seems to be: "See? This is what I have done, Coach. Look at it. Tell me what you think of it." (And maybe,
also, "Tell me where I've 'missed the mark.'") But, in this latest posting, your intention seems to be: "This is who I am, Coach. Look at me. Tell me
who you are." Those are two very different ways of asking for feedback. We are having a personal conversation here now.
>If one is wanting feedback, must it always be under the guise of approval or disapproval? Could it not just be under the desire for communication and evaluation for the growth of understanding?
"Evaluation for the growth of understanding." Good! I think I understand what you mean here. In ordinary schools, students submit their "drafts of
understanding" to the teacher, for evaluation, and the teacher goes over these drafts with a red pencil. That's a very normal way for education to
proceed. I understand your expectation along those lines. And, I understand it could be very frustrating for you that I don't tend to do a lot of
that—especially, as it happens, if the "draft of understanding" is longer than a few paragraphs. Your drafts of understanding are rather
"encompassing," if you get what I mean.
I don't mind reading them, usually enjoy them, but don't always feel motivated to attempt to address them as a whole complex theoretical
presentation. And anyway, I'm standing on a strategy of wishing for you to be proud of them, on your own, letting them stand on their own merits,
as they are! I'm hoping they can become "proud throw-aways" for you.
I don't usually work by evaluating theoretical expressions of the field of work that we are *doing* here. I like to try to stick more with what's
happening between us as human beings interacting together. And even though you are very perceptively correct that I sometimes do do that kind of
evaluating with some of the pupils in this class, one reason I don't do that much of that kind of evaluating with you is that it would interfere with my
individual teaching plan for you. My "Eddie strategy" is to attempt to guide you along the way to be able to keep making these fine practice drafts in
Classroom Talk—on the one hand, being able to treat them as "throwaways," and on the other hand being able to feel, increasingly over time, a rich *
confidence* within you that it is okay for those posts to speak for their own selves, and stand on their own merits.
Can you empathize with my coaching aims in this, Eddie? Heh-heh. Maybe my coaching plan is back-firing here. Perhaps I *have* gone too far with
this with you. Maybe I have persisted in it too stubbornly, after all. Apparently I haven't been clear enough about it. — Is today's discussion helping
any?
Going back to your question above: there is a kind of seeking for feedback that is manipulating for attention, approval, validation, and reassurance.
That is the kind of feedback that the Believer is seeking for—depending on other people's advice for security. One can watch out for this and
sometimes recognize it clearly when it happens.
And there is a kind of seeking for feedback that is personal, and companionate. It is seeking to know: "What's going on with you, so that you and me
can *understand each other better* in peaceful companionship and collaboration on this work we are doing together?"
And in this kind of deeper *understanding* among us—for instance, among us all in this class, as a team—these ego-driven personality patterns that all
of us have can become *dissolved* in the light of awareness and understanding.
I, yer dear ol' coach, for instance, will always be able to act-out *my own* "PsychoJohnny;-), the flaming Rebel," during the rest of my life . . . . . if I
really want to. (I've played that flaming eruptive game with many a sweet Master over my years.) And, you may see some of that pattern again now
and then from me, on down the road around here.
But the more and more I come to understand these conditioned unconscious patterns in me, the less and less power they have to govern the course of
my life . . . . . and the more I can wake up on it, and step aside, and just be silent, or else communicate candidly and non-manipulatively, as seems
appropriate in the moment . . . that is, the more I understand these conditioned patterns in me, the less these patterns get in my way. It is possible to *
understand* these personality patterns of ours right out-of-power in our lives, leaving us truly free. And then, unburdoned by that superfluous
funny stuff, which has such a disruptive influence on the course of our lives, it is entirely up to us to do our best in reaching out to the world for the
things we like the most and love the most to do.
Posting these "practice drafts of understandings" is fine, Eddie! Practice like this is part of the *natural* process of becoming a writer jumping out in
you. I like to see that happening. I have various responses when I read them. Sometimes I'm delighted with ideas I've never seen before. Sometimes
it seems you're on a trail that is leading towards answers you haven't quite seen so far. But I don't necessarily feel it's my job to tell you that. I feel it's
my job to coach you how to see all the answers on your own.
If it happens that I'm doing a piece of work with somebody else—like I'm working with Deirdre on being able to accept the presence of anger in her
life and learning to work on it when it comes up—and something in one of your postings seems to undermine that, somehow, or create a possible
confusion for Deirdre, I probably will speak up with feed-back about that. And that won't necessarily mean you are "missing the mark," but only that
I'm working in another way at that time. And I don't recall anything like that in your recent postings—so I mention it only as more explanation of my
modus operandi in coaching.
But finding the mark around here, Eddie, is your part of the job, and not mine. It will only be through your own direct experiences of life as it
happens around you and within you that you will ever hit these marks. My part in it as a coach is to encourage you to keep on seeking, of course,
and to provide whatever dynamic experiential teaching tools that I can, that may aid you in doing your part of the job on your own.
So, if you are just practicing finding your own words for expressing a collection of profound insights of, say, Gurdjieff, in a rather comprehensive way,
chances are I won't normally think of giving you feedback on that, except perhaps to say that I enjoyed it, or "Good work," or something like that, if I
remember to, during a class.
Yet, it is my conscientious theory, my friend, that the more you practice posting these practice drafts, the better you will get as a writer. And the more
that you become able to treat them as "throw-aways," the more powerful you will become as a Man.
But there is a practical answer to this dilemma! The idea for an easy solution all the way around has just come to me here now. When you are writing
one of these drafts of your understandings, and there is a particular point in it that you feel uneasy about, first of all, notice this uneasiness you have
on the spot! It will be telling you, in high relief, that you don't *really know* about this point. It will bring into the light for you that this point is
something that you haven't verified on your own yet in your own direct experiencing of life.
And then, if you care to do so, address a few words to me personally, man to man. Say something like: "I think I'm missing the mark here, Coach.
Do you have any ideas on this point?"—or words to that effect. And if you wake up in the midst of a long posting effort, and bother to do this, I
promise I'll make my best efforts to wake up in my turn and give you what feed-back I can. Is that a deal?
With love and admiration for you, Eddie. You have surely come a *long way*, both as a Writer and as a Man.
Coach
Oh. yeah:
>Is what you're pointing to here that there is always this seeking approval underneath it all with "Believers" like me? Even when I'm not feeling or thinking this is my motivation? Or can I honestly not be seeking approval while going in an entirely different direction?
Well, it's always worth waking up and checking this out, as best you can. Sometimes you'll get an insight, and sometimes not. When you can see that
you're seeking approval, acknowledge it! It's no big deal. It's just personality like we all have. So if you see it, acknowledge it, and attempt to
understand what's going on.
And then proceed with whatever you're doing! Maybe say, "I see some approval-seeking here." And proceed with what you are doing. For
instance, ask for feed-back, if that's what you wish to do. Yet this tiny candid expression of your own Self-knowledge at this point, will smoothly
create a living human experiential bridge between us for whatever human response in me occurs.
The "trick" in human relations is not in being either "good boys and girls," or being "bad boys and girls." The trick is in being awake, and in being
transparently human.
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